Yadda Yadda Yadda

Saturday, December 16, 2006

12 Comments:

1. Luke said...
   1:29 pm, December 17, 2006  
   Not sure about quote one, I think it's just wrong, but quote two is clearly wrong.
   
   I can think of several cases where power is gained without taking it from others. Then again, it depends on your definition of power.
   Ludicrousity said...
   2:53 pm, December 17, 2006  
   Why don't you think the first one is right? And what is your definition of power? Can you give an example of how power is gained without it being taken?
   wire said...
   2:55 pm, December 18, 2006  
   when it is given?
   Ludicrousity said...
   5:11 pm, December 18, 2006  
   But that's still a transfer of power. Can it be gained without it being taken/received from somewhere else first?
   Luke said...
   8:46 pm, December 18, 2006  
   Well, one of many definitions of power might be to gain physical strength. That IS a form of power. And it can be gained without taking it from others...
   Ludicrousity said...
   1:18 am, December 19, 2006  
   I meant social power, influential power.
   wire said...
   9:38 am, December 19, 2006  
   that implies that there is a fixed amount of power in society and that it can only be shifted around. Since social power is, by definition, having a level of control over others it can't exist without some level of disempowerment of those whom are under it. So is the quote true? At first reading - yes (almost). I don't like the language it uses, taken implies stolen and makes a subtle judgement that to have power is morally wrong. I disagree with that point of view, but i agree that social power has to involve disempowering those that are under that power...
   
   i just had a thought.
   
   If i am thinking from a world point of view then everything i said above is true. But when i try to imagine what God intended power to be like then what i have written is actually a corruption of what power was supposed to be. I imagine that there is another sort of power, as exercised by Jesus and written about throughout the bible. The power in/of love. Power that empowers through encouragement, advice/wisdom, teaching and engenders trust, fellowship and willful following. In this sense power is generated rather than transfered because the people never give up their freedom of choice but they excercise it by following and loving their leader. The leader does not disempower his people by restricting their choice but attracts them to him/herself by their character.
   
   The only thing that differentiates this from a very subtle and powerful powerplay is the motives of those involved. If the leader genuinely loves the people more than themself and the people aren't seeking to be dominated but to follow and love their leader then this model is possible. This is the model that the bible outlines for marriage and is the model that the Israelites were supposed to live under before they demanded a king (and to be dominated). I shall call it the "Eden" model since it was the original model for relationship between man and God.
   Ludicrousity said...
   12:02 pm, December 19, 2006  
   Well said Wire. I agree. I think that we have perverted the intended use and transfer of power, but the fact remains that generally speaking in our world, power is made by power being taken. Whether that be in the business, political, or social world. Ok, so perhaps it is not an absolute and power is ALWAYS made by power beign taken, but perhaps it is more of a general truth. Not the way it was desgined, but definitely the way it works in practice. That's how I see it anyway. That's why so much of our world lives in poverty. Well, a contributing reason anyway. That seems to be one of the principles our capitalist society is based upon.
   wire said...
   2:47 pm, December 19, 2006  
   if what you are saying is that power exists primarily through power being taken then that is a neither here nor there statement and doesn't in itself have anything to do with poverty. It is just a statement on where power comes from, not on how it is used and not on the morals of power. Having power over others isn't wrong, in fact in the case of government, parenting, boss/employee relations and a whole bunch more it is necessary.
   
   Having control or power over someone is not wrong and is in fact unavoidable by the very make up of society. If that statement defines the formula for power transfer then it becomes irrelevant in the question of poverty unless another model can be given that is intrinsically better for those under power. That's what i put forward in my last comment but you said that this was "definitely the way it works in practice." So i'm not sure where the question of poverty comes in (or even what the question would be if it did).
   Ludicrousity said...
   3:58 pm, December 19, 2006  
   I was referring to what impact the shift of power has. When power is taken and is a disempowering experience, then people are often left with no power to help themselves. They are unable to survive, and in many cases starve to death because of a lack of power to do anything about their situation. I think poverty is a direct result of the abuse of power. Like I said, it is one of many factors, but I definitely think it contributes.
   
   That is not to say that all power is wrong. It is often necessary and good. However, when it is taken from another and they are left powerless, then there is a problem.
   glenn william jessop said...
   4:11 pm, December 19, 2006  
   Phew...chunky discussion guys! I think power is a notoriously slippery term. It is hard to define, which makes discussion difficult, and includes many dimensions, such as physical, social, cultural, political, economic, geographic...the list could go on. There is, of course, the spiritual aspect, too...God has the ultimate power and authority in this world.
   Ludicrousity said...
   4:13 pm, December 19, 2006  
   True, but he has also given us the world to care for, and that is a lot of power. And given the state of the world I woudl say we have abused it. We are told all we need to do is 'love the lord your god with all your heart, sould, mind and strength, and your neighbour as yourself'. That's a lot of responsibility. Sure, God is the ultimate power, but he has delegated a lot of power to us, we are not robots, so we have a lot of pwer to use, and if we choose, abuse. Unfortunately a lot of us choose the latter. I am certainly not exempt from that.

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